All week, I’ve been reading the little tributes to Alexander McQueen. Some of them just feature a nice picture with either “R.I.P” or “There are no words.”
But there are words, and I’ve been waiting for them.
People who kill themselves take a lot of other people with them.
They aren’t “laughing in heaven with Isabella Blow”, they are just dead.
People who kill themselves are usually in great distress. They are not right in the head. If we take care to monitor our depressed friends and loved ones, we might be able to save them; but we might not. Maybe we need to reach out more. Maybe we need to make depression easier to talk about. Antidepressants still carry a stigma even now. I can’t stand to hear people say “Oh, my doctor recommended medication but I’m not taking that route.” You never hear anyone with pneumonia making that statement.
Maybe Alexander McQueen was unhinged by grief over losing his mother. Now his dad has to deal with the loss of a son.
No one wants to talk about the brutality of suicide. The people left behind are victims as well. It’s an act of negation, a complete loss of hope, but it’s also a selfish act. I would even say ruthlessly selfish.
I’m not worried about whether poor Alexander McQueen is resting in peace, but I’m deeply sorry for his family. It will fuck them up forever.
Don’t kill yourself, you fuckers! We need you here. Things will get better. That is my message, so pass it on.
How I view suicide depends on who does it. If you were someone who was an orphan that had been abused and was living on the street and your life really was at the end of the road and you had no family or friends that care about you…well in that case I almost think suicide could be justified because what is the point really of continuing…
But in situations where it is people who have so many people who love and care about them, and so many opportunities for help and to turn things around…then it makes me angry because if they simply said “i need help, i want to kill myself” then there would be instant support there. So why not say that simple sentence? Why commit an act that will destroy the lives of the people who actually care about you? It truly is selfish.
An interesting parallel is that if you’ve ever known a cancer survivor or a heart attack survivor…people who have looked death in the face…I know I have – and because of that I could never choose to kill myself now as the idea of leaving that person behind, knowing my conscious choice on death, is just unbearable.
I had low moments, but my good friend scared me by being brutally straight forward: make sure you do it right, you don’t want to sit in the wheel chair or similar in front of your family till the rest of your life.
I thought McQueen was smarter than suicide and it’s still making me furious. He had such a enormous drive and managed to make wonders come alive, but that wasn’t enough to keep him alive. Now, I, small designer, need to pursue my feeble ambition, WHY would I do that? If the satisfaction wasn’t enough to keep the greats like him stick around, what’s there left for us?
I lost my mother when I was a child, my father died a couple of years ago. People die, we will die too, for sure. You miss them, you cry, you take the bitter pill and go on. It’s shit and it sucks and life is maybe not so great or even worth it, but from my perspective, he was healthy, creative and accomplished man, all that I ever wanted to be. I’m angry, cos he ruined it for me, how stupid, stupid….
The only exception I can think of is if you are terminally, miserably ill with no chance of recovery…and only a few drawn out years with death hanging above you like some laughing macabre. Like the sick poet character from “The Hours.”
Other than that, I think suicide is absolutely pathetic and a ruthless selfish act (as you put it.)
Over dosing on drugs by accident is stupid and wasteful- but suicide is something else entirely.
It makes me so angry. Here we all are, getting from thing to thing with our broken hearts trailing behind- occasionally soaring ahead-
When someone commits suicide its like they’ve broken the compact they’ve made with the rest of us. We’re in this lifetime together! When one of us gives up, he gives up on us all. and its insulting. deeply insulting and denigrating to family, but also insulting and denigrating to anyone who dares to “stick around,” hoping only for the next beautiful moment. and hoping beyond hope to be lucky enough to share it with someone.
I have a lot more words about this stuff but I’ll stop there.
Hello Sister Wolf! Love that you always have an alternative angle. Severe depression is an illness that’s beyond our control (without, say, drugs and/or some form of psychiatric help), so should a resulting suicide be labelled ‘selfish’? It’s a tragedy for the remaining family members, especially left to cope with a double bereavement – but the degree to which they are ‘victims’ is debatable. We are all ‘victims’ of death (including our own) at some stage – it’s natural: everyone dies.
21st century society doesn’t like natural so much – it prefers the idea of artificial life extension, of plastic surgery, life ‘enhancing’ drugs – and assisted suicide – it’s all part of the cold, cruel, materialistic society that we’ve created.
No doubt McQueen’s family will be counselled and helped to deal with their loss – they’ll have the opportunity to reflect on the things that were beyond their control, to appreciate that they’re not victims, but that they have every opportunity to continue with their lives in a positive, meaningful way. It will take time… but life goes on, with or without us.
Alexander McQueen’s life’s work is now a legacy of original and inspirational designs – long may he be remembered for his creative genius.
I don’t think anyone is “smarter than suicide”. Depression is an illness that doesn’t discriminate. How grievously it affects a person varies; but when one is at that lowest of low points, none of us has the powers of reasoning that we do in day to day life.
That said, I still believe it is the most selfish thing a person can do.
However, the onus is on all of us, as much as the person suffering with depression, to try and stop it. Not always easy, but easier when we don’t stick our heads in the sand & pretend that depression doesn’t exist. Perhaps if we stigmatised it less, those who are suffering would find it just that little bit easier to ask for help, before suicide is, what they feel to be, their only option.
Suicide is the ultimate decision we can make about our own lives. If that’s not ours to decide on than what is? It’s a truly sad decision but i think other people however hurt or angry they feel should respect someones wishes about not being around any longer. Please do not make a suicide about you and your feelings. Calling it selfish or ruthless is not going to help anyone to come to terms with it. And deal with it we have to, if we want to go on ourselves. The best thing we can do is try to support those who are left behind and cared deeply for the person that made this ultimate decision.
This said, i want to make clear that i don’t think there is anything heroic or romantic about suicide, and we should do everything we can to prevent it.
Suicide is utterly selfish and contrary to most people’s understanding of it – it is usually a violent act undertaken in rage not despair. Despair, grief, depression, psychosis all propel people to this point. Sister Wolf you’ve distilled this most eloquently to not right in the head and it doesn’t get truer/simpler than that.
I also agree with you about the treatment option, you’ve got more chance of treating pneumonia yourself with out medication than any depression/stress/trauma/grief. Grief takes a lot of support, love, care and attention.
Moral of this story is people alone are more vulnerable. Given McQueen’s personality and behaviour he needed 24 hour watch/care to get him through the first week or so of his mother’s death. Making it to her funeral would have helped in his overcoming the turmoil.
As for Isabella Blow, one doesn’t want to speak badly of the dead but McQueen was sad not devastated by her death and has everyone forgotten how much they’d fallen out. Has everyone forgotten that Blow was sacked due to inability to stick to budgets or listen to anyone. That she was obsessed by her family’s lost fortune etc. etc.
Fashion is not only a creative industry it has a creative and selective memory when it comes renowned players. I’m always amused by how the fashion pack/journos love fashion when their careers are going well or things are happening but diss the same business when on a low.
Fashion is an industry and I don’t think it is more or less focused than any other, nor could anyone have prevented Lee McQueen’s death by suicide but it is a lesson to us all on caring for each other rather than garments. However bad anything is, SW is right things always get better or our perspective shifts.
You hit the nail right on the head, and your firmness doesn’t come off as typical tough-love scare tactics. Thank you for that. As a bipolar person (unmedicated) who has suicide scares just about every day, I know its like having someone out to murder you, but that murderer is you. You have to bring those two parts of yourself together and mediate, but in being so divided, it’s easy to lose track of all the people who help you every day and how much it would gut them to lose you. It’s very easy to only think of yourself, ’cause you’re so scared you might be gone in an hour, or on worse days, you hate yourself so much that you end up obsessed.
McQueen was the only living designer with an astounding triple-threat talent for tailoring, conceptualism, and wit. Now he’s joined the other dead ones who had these talents. I was astounded at how low on Vogue’s radar the story of his suicide ranked. It almost seemed as if no one cared much about him in the fashion industry, like his depressive perfectionism isolated him while it also made him a darling and not to be fucked with. He made clothes that were all altars unto themselves, and I wish he would have handled himself with as much care as his creations.
Thank you. While I am one of the people who posted a picture tribute, I’ve been mulling over what to say about this situation all week (it always takes a little while for words to catch up to me). As usual, you said much of it as bluntly and gloriously as possible.
It’s so easy to romanticize death when it’s not close to you. And I honestly think that unless you’ve experienced the suicide of someone close, you can’t imagine what it feels like to be left behind.
Shit, Sister, I was holding this at arm’s length for a reason. Now you have to be sensible and point out the tough stuff. I don’t want to be angry at the man who introduced me to fashion. Brb, cryin’ my eyes out.
It makes me sad that depression still carries a stigma.
I understand why people commit suicide and disagree with some of the comments expressed here.
Sister off topic, but have you seen Crazy Heart? I like Robert Duval. Pls see it and get back to me.
True about it fucking up everyone you know and love forever. My would have been brother-in-law committed suicide before I could have met him. My brother-in-law is still so angry and hurt 🙁
But I still feel incredible amounts of pity for Mr. McQueen. He must have been in so much pain and here all I could think is how great it would be to be him. I felt even more crushed about Isabella Blow. I read an interview with her in a magazine I bought in England when I was 15. She made me realize that fashion people aren’t all pretentious and stuck up. She was very real.
Suicide makes me wonder what it would have taken to reach out and grab that person back from the brink. Tell them that they matter and they should stick around.
I feel like that about Stephen Fry (well known Bi-polar, suspected Aspie Genius) and I worry.
But I know in my brain that people in that “place” can be a real pain in the arse to their nearest and dearest, emotionally torturing them to the point where they do back off and then miss the chance to pull them from the brink.
A good friend stopped his mother once – then got pulled into the web that had put her in the bad place and it haunted him for several years. He wasn’t there the second, successful time.
I suppose all we can do is try and set an example of reaching out for help, not going into the cave, accepting and using the help available – counselling, medications, finding another outlet.
I don’t understand it because my depression always takes the form of rage, and kicking other peoples arses is so much more satisfying. But I can appreciate it is different for others – and their chemical or reactive depression is very real.
Just gotta keep telling the stories, defusing the stigma, making awareness of depression “cool” and getting treated “fly” (I’m so street)
xx
I’m still working on my General Theory of Suicide so I’ll save my final statement for later. An old friend of mine hung himself last year and I was more angry than sad immediately after receiving the news. My initial reaction was “did that stupid cunt really have to do this,” and the feeling lingered for quite some time before the grief finally took over. I’ve had other friends kill themselves before but I don’t remember being angry at any of them. Maybe it has something to do with ageing.
Speaking of which, I read on Slate that McQueen died at the YOUTHFUL age of 40.” I’m only a year older, which makes my age youthful as well, I suppose. I’d better go at once and tell myself in front of the mirror – with a pointed finger and a Dr. Phil face: “You are youthful.” As tragic as every premature death is, at least this one gave me a reason to remind myself of the fact that, if all goes well and nothing breaks down, I have a good chance of staying alive for another 40 years. That is also the plan.
Good post, Sister. There’s nothing romantic or heroic about suicide. It’s ultimately a selfish act, a cop-out, though I think in the moment when the person makes that choice they are incapable of thinking rationally and are convinced that their loved ones will be better off without them. It’s also often an impulsive act, as it was for my husband. He never spoke of suicide, expressed the usual confusion and dismay when famous people took their own lives, and absolutely adored his two kids (and me). I read about a study of people who had been prevented from jumping off bridges and more often than not they were still alive several years later and didn’t simply drive to another bridge as you might assume.
Bottom line: don’t do it. And to Kate, above: Why are you an unmedicated bipolar? Get some help! It’s impossible to overstate how devastating suicide is to the survivors. It’s utterly shattering in every way: emotional, spiritual, financial. If you don’t care enough about yourself, at least care about your family and friends and the lifelong impact your leaving would have on them.
Seconded.
I’ve nothing useful to say, but these guys do: http://www.samaritans.org/your_emotional_health/about_suicide/helping_others_at_risk.aspx
Worth reading if you’re worried that someone close to you might be suicidal
What I am about to say should be prefaced by the following: I spent my entire childhood going to funerals and have seen more dead bodies than you could shake a stick at.
Everyone has to deal with death and bereavement. I don’t think suicide is any worse than any other kind of death. By the time a person decides they want to die, the friends/family have already lost them long before that anyway.
“Selfish” is a strange word to throw at suicide– if the person want to die, and it’s the surviving family/friends who want him to stay alive because they don’t want to suffer the guilt/bereavement, then surely the “selfish” tag should be given to them, not the person who wants to die.
I’ve had a cup of coffee and thought about what I said in my comment above. I think I was wrong now. Every case is different. It’s hard to generalize about these things.
I always appreciate that you are unafraid to bring challenging issues to the forefront.
This is a touchy subject, and it is very hard to grasp let alone understand.
If a person actually goes through the act of suicide, then they have reached a point in their mind, that was unreachable. Probably no person could have helped, no matter how loving or astute.
There are people who have suicidal thoughts, and talk about it, but would never go through with the act, yet they think they want to die, as it would be a more favorable solution than their existence. One of my sisters is an example of that. One day, she was in a particularly dark place and actually planned to die. It really scared her, as she, at the time had a one and a half year old. She did tell someone, her husband. I don’t believe she would ever really attempt suicide, but she desperately needed and still needs therapy, and YES, medication to level her moods out. When she does not take her prescribed medicine, she goes into a downward spiral into despondency.
I have never been really close to someone who has attempted suicide and succeeded, but have had acquaintances who have, and in these cases, it seemed a shock.
I don’t know if help was possible, but it is very sad for those who are left.
The act of killing ones self is one of self absorption, and the inability to see that there is another solution, and that others are suffering as well. I agree with Make Do Style, that there is an element of anger involved too, but it is not necessarily conscious. I believe that there is a lot that goes on with people, that lies deep beneath the surface, and some people don’t look at within themselves, or they are not able too for what ever reason.
In life, perspective is everything, and whatever is presented gives us an opportunity to grow. We are never alone, even though sometimes we feel like we are.
Sister’s message is a good one.
I’m always interested in your comments on mental health. maybe it is different in the uk, or at least my part of the UK, but here I feel that there is an over-emphasis on a diagnosis of depression – almost as an excuse. every ache, pain and problem that they can’t pinpoint on a mediocre scan is brushed off with the suggestion that its essentially all in your head/some phantom pain as an offshoot of depression – and they can just dump your case then. I’ve had to fight countless times with medics to convince them there were actual, physical problems, sometimes even life-threatening ones.
On the flipside I’ve known many friends and a few relatives who do deal with depression at various levels. I would be one of those that are reluctant to deal with the chemical route – primarily because I have seen many loved ones get sucked into an inescapable path of ever-changing drugs, upon which they are utterly dependent to function. I know some people really, genuinely need these – as in the instances related above, but I think in many cases they are pushed on, out of what seems like pure laziness from the medical profession.
As someone who has clinical depression, has had a nervous breakdown and long periods of extreme suicidality, and is currently on medication, the only thing that enrages me about some of the above comments is the attitude that suicide is a selfish act or a cop out. Empathy or even sympathy is called for here, not glib comments from people who have clearly never been in that place.
Depression is a serious illness and requires medication for the person to be normal. Depression should be considered in the same way as epilepsy or diabetes, in that it requires daily medication and should not stigmatised by society. I am very open about my need for antidepressants and I believe that if more people felt that they could be open about this, not only would it destigmatise the illness, but many more people in need of treatment might seek it. Comments such as some of the above do not help the situation at all. Trying to understand the suicidal mind and talk about it does.
For those interested in learning more, I recommend this excellent book – http://www.amazon.com/Night-Falls-Fast-Understanding-Suicide/dp/0375401458.
In my own generation, of all the people I know, I’m the one who knows/knew the maximum number of people who’d killed themselves. And I agree with Sister that people who do this to themselves devastate everyone they leave behind- the guilt is awful. We had no idea at all that this was what they’d planned, and they were good at hiding it.
If you really want to kill yourself, there’s probably not much space for anything else in your head just then- not the life you haven’t lived yet, the hurt caused to family and friends, not anything. And if it has become too much for someone I love, I’d respect that choice- no matter how it hurt me. Judging people who kill themselves- something I referred to in my own post on his death- is not something I’d do, or something that I think other people should do. Yes, it hurts me like a bitch, but whatever caused someone to take his own life, probably hurt him more.
Note: re: respecting their choice, I mean if they’d managed to kill themselves. If I ever found out someone was contemplating suicide, or thought they were, I wouldn’t “respect that choice” as long as I had a chance or a clue of how to keep them alive. But after the fact, it’s just…..I don’t know.
Depression isn’t a cause it’s a symptom and taking antidepressants does not remove the cause of the depression it only masks it. My shrink is reticent in dispensing drugs. She calls it the Big Pill Push! Antidepressants are known for causing suicidal thoughts in some people, so what’s the point of taking something that may or may not prevent suicide? But I do agree that some people need meds; however the majority of people need so much more than meds: they need family, friends, life purpose, jobs and careers, hope, hobbies, healthy food, healthy environment, toxic people out of their lives, rest and recreation, continuing education, community, and most importantly lots and lots of love and the knowledge that they have meaning to other people in this world. I eschew all meds and though I did have pneumonia and was administered LOTS of drugs, I was pissed with the amount and type of drugs they pumped in me to “cure” me. My drugs had “blackbox” warnings on them, and now I may have to live with side effects for the rest of my life. (Did you know that there was a 97% cure rate of the Spanish Flu when herbs were used; however, there was a 97% Death rate when meds where used? Look it up, the info is out there.)
I agree suicide is selfish and shows poor problem solving skills, because, it’s not a way to solve your problems, only end your life, and create heartache for those left behind that care and love that person. And we all know we’re going to die so we might as well enjoy the ride; however, bumpy it may be because it will be over one day . . . and I want my ride without meds, not being numb, and I know that heartache and heartbreak and tragedy are part of the ride as are joy and love and bliss and happiness. (More of latter, we hope for, than the former.)
Let’s not victimize the victims, it’s the environment that needs to change not the individual. Only a sick society would produce a majority of people that need to be on meds to cope with life IMHO.
I took a similar angle on my blog. I didn’t want to NOT mention it because it was a huge shock to the fashion community. I guess we shouldn’t really be shocked though; whoever said that success/money/power keeps a person happy and fulfilled? He was probably lonely. Party “friends” and hanger-ons probably furthered his feelings of isolation. (Kate Moss is a cunt) Ugh and useless, fake fashion assholes would drive you insane. I get enough of those types in the art world and I want to run to Mennonite country sometimes.
Suicide makes me angry…why shouldn’t it?
I find these statistics interesting. Such a white man’s problem, why?
U.S. Suicide Statistics (2001)
Further Breakdown by Gender / Ethnicity
Rate Per
Group # of Suicides 100,000
White Male…….22,328……..19.5
White Female …..5,382………4.6
Nonwhite Male ….2,344………9.3
Nonwhite Female ….568………2.1
Black Male …….1,627………9.2
Black Female……..330………1.7
Hispanic………..1850………5.0
Fake assholes exist in every field. I can testify to their presence in law, in publishing, and banking too. And what is the point of calling his friends names for this?
Oh yeah, I figured I was unto something spectacular here. I could not remember what it was but then it hit me. I have no statistics but if I count quickly I can verify that I’ve lost 30-40 close friends since the nineneteen-eighty-something. Most of them didn’t kill themselves – they just died before their time. But I’ve lost friends so dear I can’t think without crying.
And I do think people should get medical help for whatever it is that CAN be cured!!
But I’m sorry to say I piss on the diagnosis fetisism and on people who say they have clinical this or diagnosed that, and that’s how it is and they feel teribly low now so it’s okay for them to do whatever they want – even to commit suicide. I’m sorry but I don’t think it’s okay, and even if I learned to “understand depression” I don’t think I could see the point in killing yourself.
Thanks SW – you just talked me down from the ledge
iron chick- it’s not success through money or power, he was so incredibly creative and with such a wild imagination, he pursued his vision and made it happen. That sort of a drive and hard work must have been a big part of his life, a huge investment of energy. There are people who live for their art. No doubt, some of them are lonely.
Vogue is bunch of selfish cunts, that is obvious.
Alex, I couldn’t agree more. Depression is an illness, it can be helped by medication, people don’t need to be ashamed of taking antidepressants, and their friends and families don’t need to tell them “oh, just snap out of it”. Why not to try to “snap out” of, let’s say, a need for a daily dose of insuline? I never regretted getting antidepressants, and would do it again in a blink. Jesus, if herbs work for you – all the power to you; nothing I tried (including sessions with a shrink) did, until I got a little Paxil pill – despite the “drugs – BAAAAD!” theory.
All I want to say to the depressed people – help is possible, things can get better, you can get out of the black hole, life can be enjoyable and interesting again, so please try and ask for help!
iheartfashion– I didn’t mean to come off as even more insane by announcing that I’m unmedicated and bipolar, but there has been very little progress in treating the threatening suicidal aspects of bipolar with medication. Lithium is the only drug proven to assuage suicidal ideation in bipolar individuals, but this is only at very low doses. Every other drug I have been on has caused suicidal attempts in the first few weeks of use due to unleashed inhibitions. In the end, I have to reason with myself, go to therapy, avoid drugs, and fight for my life. Medication helps some people to begin to fight thoughts of suicide, but it has never once helped me. Unfortunately, many antipsychotics cause long-term serious health problems like diabetes, which is as good as slow suicide, or have short-term risks like massive weight gain or severe eye pain–talk about worsening depression. We’ve seen plenty of celebrities overdose on prescribed meds and acheive suicide that way. Medication is not always a good option.
Dru- I guess my annoyance is still fresh from this article:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1250830/Alexander-McQueens-ex-partner-throws-disturbing-light-hangers-lionised-truly-knew-him.html
dust- I think sometimes people assume that success brings happiness and fulfillment. How many times did I hear this week “but he had it all, he was at the top of his game. Why?” Creative humans often have one foot in the dark half of existence. Reading through his past interviews, it seems like he was fed up with the fashion industry.
Beautifully expressed, Sister. And I think Janet’s perspective on this,specifically, is so relevant. (Janet: It’s inspirational how you’re managing through such a brutal time. xo)
iron chick- yes, he was fed up with the circus, can’t blame him. Actually he never even liked it.
Maybe I tend to idolize the whole thing. What I think was artists “ecstasy of creation”, for him it was just a day job.
As someone who’s been diagnosed as depressed and given medication, I was one of those people you talk of SW who didn’t want to go down the route of taking drugs. So I didn’t. I tried to help myself and failed, so started taking the drugs but the drugs made me want to kill myself. I found myself planning everything to the letter, even as far as what to write in the letter, looking out fresh blades for my scalpel, deciding where to make the cuts, how long I had before anyone would come into the house and find me (would I have enough time to bleed to death?). This terrified me beyond words. I stopped taking the drugs and I believe I was wrongly diagnosed as depressed. I am getting better by myself and I think if I had continued to take the drugs I would have killed myself. Obviously that’s just me and for other people the drugs really do work.
I’ve been unable to post thus far, because I fell conflicted and unable to put my thoughts into words. Here is my feeble attempt: When I read the book “The Bell Jar” by Sylvia Plath, and shortly thereafter, “Girl Interrupted”, I began to have a small inkling into the minds of the women who were the subjects of these books. And in a bizarre way, I began to understand myself. Not the constant haunting thoughts of suicide that were as much a part of their lives as breathing, but the depression associated with their inner bleakness.
If you do not experience it, it is impossible to understand depression that arises for no apparent reason, the depths of its despair, and the feelings of wanting to crawl into the earth, or worse, leave this earth. Ultimately, it is the cruel fate of genetics that has destined a person’s brain to function in this unacceptable way.
I cannot, say, however, that I understand a person who has not shown signs of depression and whose life seemingly is together, would, without warning or cry for help, take his own life. It inexplicably leaves a family with shackles of guilt, uncertainty, fear, self doubt. I do believe that it is unfair for a person to deliberately leave this earth without comment to her loved ones.
On another spectrum, I have known an individual to take his life as a final act of cruelty to his wife, who after years of struggling through a difficult marriage, had finally decided to leave. He premeditated, researched, and carried out the act all the while communicating his actions to his wife, who frantically tried to locate him, but ultimately was unable to do so before he had succeeded. His rationale? To saddle her with all of the problems that would ensue in the aftermath because, he knew their children would blame her. He got his wish; she deals daily with angry outbursts from her kids. What he did not anticipate is that she does not miss him. If she could pull him back from the grave, she would still leave.
Ultimately, I am conflicted with understanding how a depressed person might consider suicide, how some individuals might be unable to stave off constant thoughts about hurting themselves, yet I cannot understand those who leave without warning. I am deeply sympathetic for those who deal with the lose of a loved one whose life ended by his own hand, no matter the circumstances. Peace.
My mom has tried to commit suicide on several occasions so I am pretty well versed in the suicidal mind. I’ve come to the conclusion (after a few therapy sessions of my own) that people with depression and suicidal tendencies are extremely ill and without proper treatment, they simply are unable to see any other way out. That’s part of the illness. The feeling that they really don’t have another option other than suicide. Unfortunately, a lot of the time many successful suicides started as just cries for help. But that’s why the illness is so terrible.
Depression is an illness as much as pneumonia.
The drugs to cure it can have side effects, and sometimes either don’t work, or need a lot of tweaking and work to make them work. The same could be said for pneumonia or cancer, or any other illness.
The difference is that no one is told that cancer of pneumonia are not really illnesses and that if you just get it together you will just snap out of it and be fine.
My best friend killed him self two years ago on thanksgiving and I am angry. Death is of course natural, but it still makes me angry. I lost half my friends in the 80’s and 90’s and I am still angry about that. Sometimes its easier to deal with anger than overwhelming grief.
My best friend had tried many times before. I have a missing tooth because one time he was in LA and told me he had a gun, and i got on a plane and stopped him. I have washed his blood off his walls.
When he decided to do it, he did it. And yes I am angry. He was bi-Polar and refused all treatment because he believed he could control it by his will power. He couldn’t. He took drugs for his other illnesses… But was convinced that Bi polar was not an illness, and frequently drowned his frustrations with his attempts to control it with will power in gallons of whiskey. Needless to say, when said gallons fucked with his liver… he took pills to cure him. Two weeks before he died his cat was diagnosed with feline depression, and he got prozac. (yep, true story).
He killed him self on thanksgiving and i am angry. I will never enjoy that holiday again. Ever. If he was just a little less arrogant, we could have been celebrating what we were thankful for for decades.
A violent death is a violent act. It is a fuck you for the people around you. if it wasn’t, suicides would wander off somewhere and do things in private. disappear. not leave bloody exploded remains.
So yes I am angry, i think it is selfish, and i am selfish enough not to care how any one else feels. That is how i feel
Also… Influenza is a virus. There were no drugs to treat virus’ in 1918. There are precious few now, inoculation is your best bet.
From: http://dearpharmacist.com/
Dear Pharmacist,
Last week, you gave a ‘Dumb’ Award to “anti-depressant drugs and the doctors who prescribe them for every woman who is tired or tearful.” I struggle with depression, and my medications don’t help. Can you elaborate? —D.D. Tacoma, Washington
Answer: You and millions of other people will get shuffled from one psychiatrist to another, and one drug to another, and you will remain on the ‘medication merry-go-round’ until you feed your brain what it’s hungry for.
For many online readers who did not read my column last week, I will re-post my exact comments about anti-depressants and the dumb award here:
Dumber Award: We have a tie between anti-depressant drugs and the doctors who prescribe them for every woman who is tired or tearful. Of the various ‘happy’ chemicals naturally produced in our body, serotonin is the one most likely to be raised by anti-depressant drugs. But research shows that depression may be caused by elevated stress hormones, low vitamin D levels, diabetes or insulin-resistance (diagnosed or not), low progesterone hormone, niacin or folate deficiency or exposure to plastics. So what’s up with all the drugs? Their side effects are depressing if you think about it -problems achieving orgasm, low sex drive, insomnia, suicidal thoughts and heart palpitations. Anti-depressant drugs don’t fix the underlying cause for neurotransmitter deficiencies and doctors should be conducting lab tests to determine the cause for emotional instability before prescribing pills and dismissing you.
I stand by these comments though I realize that my column left many readers curious about what they could be doing to improve their emotional health and ability to cope with stress.
Anti-depressants such as Zoloft, Prozac, Cymbalta, Celexa, Lexapro, Paxil, Wellbutrin, Effexor and so forth, DO help some people, and I am not going to knock these very effective drugs. That said, as a class, these medications are incapable of correcting underlying nutritional deficiencies, hormonal imbalances or neurotransmitter imbalances.
Medications artificially -and temporarily- lift brain chemicals, and they have numerous uncomfortable side effects that some people experience during treatment. The most common side effects associated with prescribed drug therapy may include nausea, insomnia, constipation or diarrhea, low appetite, headache, weakness, restlessness, trembling, shaking, abnormal dreams and changes in taste perception. Sexual dysfunction is another real problem associated with prescribed anti-depressants, although some drugs are less disruptive than others. Problems such as decreased sex drive, inability to climax are two common issues that cause people to go off their medications. It gets a little more disturbing when you think about pediatric patients who are taking prescribed anti-depressants. Only after many years of prescribing, the Food & Drug Administration (FDA) conducted a review (2004), and they studied 2,200 children treated with SSRI anti-depressants. They found that children taking the SSRI medications experienced suicidal thinking and thoughts of self-harm, suicidal attempts at TWICE the rate of those taking placebos (sugar pills). In response, they decided to strengthen safety warnings and forced drug makers to place a “black box” warning on these drugs alerting prescribing physicians that these medications may increase the risk of suicidal thinking.
There is a press-release entitled “FDA Launches a Multi-Pronged Strategy to Strengthen Safeguards for Children Treated With Antidepressant Medications” which can be read here:
I’m not convinced that all people who commit suicide actually want to die. They may think they do, but when it comes down to it, they really just want to live and have their life be better.
When I was eight or nine, one of my uncles committed suicide. He got into his car in the garage, broke the locks off on the doors, and turned on the engine. But when they found him, my mom said it looked like he had spent his last few seconds desperately trying to get out of that locked car. In the end, he realized he didn’t want to die.
While I personally would never hurt the people around me by killing myself, no matter how bad my life got–and it hasn’t always been a nice life to live–I can’t condemn a person who does, because I don’t know what went through that person’s head. When you get to the point that you think you have nothing to live for, do you still realize you have people who care? Probably, when a person gets to that point, they genuinely think there’s no one who can help or no one who would care to. And that would be a bleak, lonely state of mind to have.
Also, “not in their right mind” is an apt description. I can’t condemn people who commit suicide because I’m not entirely convinced a person who does so is sane. One of the strongest human drives is simply the drive to live, and all other drives seem to step from this one. So how could a human being who rejects that goal and refutes that drive be considered in their right mind?
Perfectly stated… as usual. 😉
Having had several friends, all of which were male I might add, commit suicide in the last 5 or so years I am compelled to believe that men are just WEAK individuals. These men left behind loving wives and beautiful children to deal with “the mess” One friend even went so far as to torture a loved one over the phone with threats of carrying out the deed and in fact did accomplish what he set out to do…… die while torturing the one he loved the most. How fucking sick is that???? I won’t deny that there has to be something totally fucked up in their brains but why is it that women have always been referred to as “the weaker sex” And men continue to prove that WRONG!!!!!
Iron Chic- honestly, it’s the Daily Mail- always to be taken with a sackful of salt. Lee McQueen was pretty openly supportive of Kate Moss, even at the height of the Cocaine Kate scandal, and it sounds like it went both ways. If anything, her looking through George Forsyth after they split up sounds like what I used to do in my own younger days to friends’ exes (and they must have had a bad breakup, if they didn’t speak for eighteen months).
I still maintain that there’s no point in blaming McQueen’s friends- fashion or not- for his death. Imagine blaming the friends and family of everyone who takes their lives for the fact that they made that choice, it’s just not something I want to do.
^re: looking-throough behaviour in younger days, I admit I was a twat. Hopefully I’m more mature and have better manners now.
‘Jesus’- As a medical student and someone currently on Zoloft (sertraline), you haven’t got a fucking clue what you’re talking about. Anti-depressants can often be extremely effective and, when in combination with CBT, even more so. Show me one solid peer-reviewed study published in a respected journal that demonstrates that correction of ‘nutritional deficiencies’ can treat anxiety/depression and I will eat my computer. Like it or not, there is a plethora of research on the biological mechanisms that underlie depression that shows, whilst environmental triggers obviously play a large role, it is an inappropriate, damaging response- a pathology. In some people (such as myself) there is not even an obvious psychological cause. In fact, genetics probably has something to do with it too.
Medication is not for everyone, but views like yours are only helping to stigmatise something that can genuinely help people with mental illness.
And frankly, I’m not even going to dignify your comment about the 1918 ‘flu epidemic with a response. Don’t be ridiculous.
Anyway, back on topic. I agree that from a purely external point of view, suicide is selfish. But to classify something as selfish implies that people are making a conscious free-willed choice to do something without caring it will injure others. I don’t believe someone who is clinically depressed (though I’d like to point out that there isn’t any evidence that McQueen was depressed, at least from a clinical, diagnostic view, at the time of his suicide- it might have simply been a reaction to grief) is always capable of complete free-will (if such a thing exists) in a situation like that.
Consequently, to brand all suicide as selfish might perhaps be a little harsh, as a number of people above me have said.
But I agree otherwise- suicide is not something to be romanticised.
And Talisa- it’s actually women who attempt suicide more often than men. It just men succeed more often, probably because they tend towards methods more likely to succeed.
Sarah I love you, but for not having a fucking clue about what I’m talking about . . . you’re on anti-depressants and I’m not! (That was Jesus being mean spirited but the rest is all good!) I’ve got more than my fair share of tragedy in my life, and I have a fucked time coping with the horribleness of it all. But I feel it all, the good, the bad, and the ugly! And I have faith in nature (most of the time, I’m not perfect . . . ).
Can you please keep an open mind especially if you’re going to be treating people in the near future. Can I send you some info? Can I send you my e-mail? contact1420@yahoo.com Will you please not trust big pharma so blindly w/o taking a deeper look? Will you take a step beyond? Will you not conform to the current rancid methods of medicine because it’s the way it’s always been?
As for the above comment, I thought I made it clear that it was written by a pharmacist. If it wasn’t clear, my apologies. Yes, some people need meds but not all people, not all the time, maybe a lot fewer than are taking them. Meds all have side effects and you know that as a medical student and as user of an anti-depressant. I didn’t say EVERYONE should be off meds, but it shouldn’t be a first line of defense, don’t you agree with that simple premise? As for the flu epidemic again take a closer look. Just because it’s the status quo don’t mean it’s so. Please Sarah always be skeptical. Follow the advice of Einstein, “Question Authority!” And remember (I love my cliches) “Imagination is more important than knowledge.” Be imaginative when you read something in a “peer review medical journal,” even the greats are bought and sold by Big Pharma. I’m sure you’ve heard of prestigious doctors being paid to have their names used by ghost writers for medical journals. You have my e-mail you may contact me if you would like further discourse.
P.S. I had dinner with a fud (PhD) last weekend who was diagnosed with stage iv (colon, liver, prostrate) cancer 12 years ago, and he cured himself using quantum physics. When he was first diagnosed he was given months to live. He went to the UCLA library and read everything he could find on cancer and then he implemented his knowledge. And his cure was rather simple (Occam’s razor) (I guess quantum physics is simple to those who understand it), so keep a very open mind when it comes to alternative healing, meds, herbs, etc. Don’t pooh pooh it because it doesn’t fit your mindset.
Wishing all the best in Med school and a quick getting off meds and getting on with your life!
And suicide does suck . . . big time!
Great post, SW. As someone whose father has attempted suicide, and having suffered depression myself in the past, I’ve been on both sides to an extent. I suppose by definition suicide is a selfish act, though not wilfully so – I think the overriding feeling of someone depressed enough to do it is numbness, a feeling that nothing matters including oneself. It is a very difficult thing to get out of.
“Jesus”, you are talking complete nonsense, and derailing a fascinating thread. Patni and Sarah are absolutely correct. It comes down to this: if you have a serious accident, do you want someone to come and give you herbal tea? Or do you want an ambulance and drugs?
Marl, emergency medical treatment has nothing to do with long term taking care of one’s body, spirit, and mind. It’s like talking apples and oranges. Oye Vey, Jesus was glad, at one point he was crucified, he couldn’t stand all the “nonsense!” Think HOLISTIC my dear. Everything is related. Depression, meds, modern society, suicide is all all related. Jesus Fucking Christ!!!! Oh yeah, that’s me!! Jesus Fucking Christ!!!
“Jesus”: emergency medical treatment is exactly the same as long-term medical treatment – the patient is assessed, and given treatment as required. End of discussion.
Jesus-
“I’ve got more than my fair share of tragedy in my life, and I have a fucked time coping with the horribleness of it all. But I feel it all, the good, the bad, and the ugly! And I have faith in nature (most of the time, I’m not perfect . . . )”
What are you on about? I don’t think you quite understand what having clinical anxiety/depression is like do you? And in my case, there was no ‘tragedy’ in my life that set it off. Nothing whatsoever. It’s not an appropriate reaction to a sad event, like grief or feeling down for a while. It’s a sustained, inappropriate response. Which is why it’s a *disease*.
And are you suggesting that my capability to experience emotion or function day-to-day is somehow blunted because I’m on 50mg of SSRIs a day? You wouldn’t be able to tell if you spoke to me in the street. Most of my acquaintances don’t have a clue. I’m not a drugged-up zombie. It’s attitudes like yours that contribute to the stigma associated with taking psychiatric medication.
“Can you please keep an open mind especially if you’re going to be treating people in the near future. Can I send you some info? Can I send you my e-mail? contact1420@yahoo.com Will you please not trust big pharma so blindly w/o taking a deeper look? Will you take a step beyond? Will you not conform to the current rancid methods of medicine because it’s the way it’s always been?”
Um… Seeing as I’m a medical student in the UK who will be working for the NHS in the near future, I doubt there’s many people more sceptical of ‘big pharma’ than me.
Repeat after me: well-controlled, fair trials conducted by independent researchers that have been peer-reviewed by independent anonymous reviewers show anti-depressants work. I’m not emailing you. Link me to a study that shows me that ‘herbs’ (I feel ridiculous even typing this) have a similar effect.
“As for the above comment, I thought I made it clear that it was written by a pharmacist. If it wasn’t clear, my apologies. Yes, some people need meds but not all people, not all the time, maybe a lot fewer than are taking them.”
…OK? I agree with you here… Although I’d like to see some kind of evidence to support your last comment.
“Meds all have side effects and you know that as a medical student and as user of an anti-depressant. I didn’t say EVERYONE should be off meds.”
Yes, so? Every single drug (and ‘herb’) has side-effects. Personally, I’d rather have the side-effects than the depression.
” but it shouldn’t be a first line of defense, don’t you agree with that simple premise? As for the flu epidemic again take a closer look. Just because it’s the status quo don’t mean it’s so. ”
Why not? If it’s more effective than any other treatment and freely available then why not? I agree that in the majority of cases, CBT should also be used in conjunction but it’s always possible, at least immediately. Luckily, I can get in on the NHS and at my university for free. But for people in countries without socialised medicine, I doubt it’s feasible. But that’s a critique on healthcare systems rather than what doctors ‘should’ recommend.
And as for the 1918 influenza epidemic… I’m actually doing a virology module at the moment and have written several thousand words on the subject. But go for it- tell me something I don’t know! I guess the world-class tutors and researchers at my university must have forgotten to inform us of the healing powers of ‘herbs’.
“Please Sarah always be skeptical. Follow the advice of Einstein, “Question Authority!” And remember (I love my cliches) “Imagination is more important than knowledge.” Be imaginative when you read something in a “peer review medical journal,” even the greats are bought and sold by Big Pharma. ”
Don’t be so fucking condescending. Questioning and testing the results of studies is engrained into the mind of every self-respecting independent scientist. Why on earth do you think Wakefield got so much shit after the MMR scare? I think you should follow your own advice.
“I’m sure you’ve heard of prestigious doctors being paid to have their names used by ghost writers for medical journals. You have my e-mail you may contact me if you would like further discourse.”
That’s what meta-analyses and independent studies are for. And no, I don’t want your email.
“P.S. I had dinner with a fud (PhD) last weekend who was diagnosed with stage iv (colon, liver, prostrate) cancer 12 years ago, and he cured himself using quantum physics. When he was first diagnosed he was given months to live. He went to the UCLA library and read everything he could find on cancer and then he implemented his knowledge. And his cure was rather simple (Occam’s razor) (I guess quantum physics is simple to those who understand it), so keep a very open mind when it comes to alternative healing, meds, herbs, etc. Don’t pooh pooh it because it doesn’t fit your mindset.”
*facepalm*
Occam’s Razor is the law of parsimony used to guide the development of theoretical models within the scientific method. It has nothing to do with quantum mechanics in particular.
But do explain exactly how your friend managed to cure metastatic cancer… Maybe he should put his brilliant mind to curing HIV/AIDS when he’s got some free time? Or drug-resistant TB? Or maybe he could conjure up a malaria vaccine whilst he’s at it? Those poor sods in Africa could really do with one of those. I guess we’ve just been too lazy to figure it out until now…
“Wishing all the best in Med school and a quick getting off meds and getting on with your life!”
I’m getting on with my life just fine right now, thanks! Good luck with understanding science a little better!